Can Baptist Pastors Drink? June 3, 2008
Posted by Gordon in Pastor's Stuff.Tags: Baptist blog, Baptist blogger, pastors, pastors drinking
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Not according to the rules and regulations of the Southern Baptist Convention. Should you be an ordained pastor in the SBC, OJ is about as good as it is going to get. I’ve been following a debate over at SBCToday where probitionists have been urging partakers like me in earnest tones against supping with the devil.
The prohibitionists cite various reasons as to why its wrong to sup the ‘amber nectar’ [Australianism for beer]. They range from people who have found a hermeneutical way of explaining away the verses in the Bible that indicate that perhaps the odd glass may well be good for your tum tum, to the ’slippery slope’ argument, to medical evidence that it is impossible to be anything other than drunk when you drink [even if it's just a glass or a light beer].
Queensland Baptists had a prohibition in place for ordinands until a few years ago when that was relaxed. Unless I’m mistaken, it is OK to be a Baptist pastor in the sunshine state and partake. I’m not sure what the policy is elsewhere, please let me know.
If Queensland Baptist ever goes that way, I’d seriously think about the ‘if you can’t beat ‘em join ‘em’ route and militate for a prohibition against gluttony as well. We can chuck in smoking, speeding and preaching from the Message version of the Bible.
As for our congregations, I think we should ban turning up to church late, missing the offering, and cracking jokes about pastors working only one day a week. If we are going to get serious about legislating our spirituality and codifying cultural assumptions then lets go the whole hog!
Any suggestions about what we can add to the list of banned practises gladly accepted.
well there goes my accreditation if they bring in that….
beer…mmmmmmm
(and there is nothing wrong with the message either btw!)
You are right, there’s nothing wrong with The Message after a few beers…
We have an alcohol exclusion policy on our property here, but I am allowed to partake in my own private capacity at home. Any such restrictions at your church?
ha ha ha!
are you serious when you write…”but I am allowed to partake in my own private capacity at home”
we dont have an alcohol policy…apart from…if you want to know what to give your pastor for christmas….beer is always received gratefully.
I recently took a flight where I sat next to one of the top leaders of the Exclusive Brethren and was surprised when he ordered a Brandy to accompany his Bible reading. A bit of investigation revealed that the top Exclusive Brethren leader back in the 60s ordered that all his followers shall drink alcohol. Not they can, but they will! Apparently he was an alcoholic looking for justification.
Mark Brown, you are a seriously connected guy! That was a VERY interesting titbit of info that I would otherwise never have come by. They would be the last people I thought would have partaken of alcohol!
I studied with a guy who had an accident in England on a farm road. He was hit by a farmers son pulling out of a side road. They were very rich Exclusive Brethren. He actually broke his neck but they wouldn’t have him inside the house, so he got put in the barn until an ambulance came! Go figure!
I used to work for exclusive brethren…they drink copious amounts of alcohol…
they also dont drink or eat with you…
I believe that when it comes to alcohol, we need to be very careful. On the one hand we cannot legislate it, but we also need to realize that some people do have the medical disease of addiction, and if we partake and cause these particular brothers to fall, it shall be on our heads. If I were in that position, I would like to know that I have support from my pastor and that it is actually a good thing for me not to partake. To me it is the same sort of thing that perhaps there is a man who really struggles with lust – in that situation, I would want my wife or daughters to be extra careful about their appearance. Just because we might find it ok to drink, we must by the law of love be careful to help those that we think are ‘weaker’ than us.
Hi Dave – agree with your post. I’m not sure you’ll find too many pastors who are careless about drink and not sensitive to the problem of drink. I lost my own father to a drunk driver when I was 2, so I don’t need any facts and figures to drive home the problem.
Sensitivity is always preferable to legalism.
Pastors are called to a higher calling, and need to be sensitive.
I once drove a alcoholic and drug user to church on sunday morning, and he was knocking back a ‘Redback’ on the way……
Having often lunched with pastors
you can for sure add lying, slander, stealing, gossip, adultery, abuse, and much more failing to read, failing to practise the Bible, failing to pray..
Any suggestions about what we can add to the list of banned practises gladly accepted.
I have often thought about the reality that the majority of persons had never claimed to be saved, healed, delivered, from reading a telephone book or even books by some of the world’s greatest, the most known authors writers. And yet there have been millions of persons whose life have been definitely changed, personally altered, for the good, lives transformed, whose sins have been forgiven cause they read the Bible and applied it. Even Alcoholic anonymous and their 12 step program admit that God alone forgives the sins of alcoholics, and transformers the person next too, if they admit their sin and humbly ask God to do so too. Beware though – most bad persons, drug addicts and alcoholic ones included they employ false denial techniques that build more walls between them and others
And in truth the only people I have ever seen who manifested any lasting, real changes were these people changed by God, who had next became born again, and to be fully truthful here too next half of them even got worse again next, a dog who returned to their vomit, they denied next the DENIED THE SAME FAITH THEY BELIEVED IN TOO.
The Big Book of Alcoholics Anonymous rightfully says that only God can next heal, relieve the sin, the illness of addiction. It requires the addictive person to first confess they have sinned and next ask for God’s forgiveness, help.
Too many a persons also do falsely deny who they really are, hiding behind prestigious or pretentious facade that they are unknown, cannot be discerned, read, known cause they are too complex.. you can fool some of the people some of the time, most of the people most of the time but not all of the people all of the time..
The fastest way to change is by praying, even by the prayers of others, reading the Bible as well..
Jesus himself said a person can be known simply by what they do. good people do good things.. and bad people tend to do bad things.
(Mat 7:18 KJV) A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
(Mat 7:19 KJV) Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
(Mat 7:20 KJV) Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
(Mat 7:21 KJV) Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
(Mat 7:22 KJV) Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
(Mat 7:23 KJV) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
(Mat 7:24 KJV) Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
(Mat 7:25 KJV) And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.
(Mat 7:26 KJV) And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
(Mat 7:27 KJV) And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.
Beware always of men and women, bullies, tormentors, control freaks, persons, civil and public servants, politicians, pastors, leaders, elders, who falsely do, will try to enslave you, oppress you, exploit you even while they claim they are proclaiming the truth, democracy, trying to help you, etc.,
Is 51:23 ..your tormentors {and} oppressors, those who said to you, Bow down, that we may ride {or} tread over you; and you have made your back like the ground and like the street for them to pass over.
People to make money even these days tell all kind of lies … Today many Children are also being falsely led to believe that Gambling, Alcohol and Bad drug use is generally safe. The average 18 year old has seen 100,000 television commercials encouraging him or her to drink. That’s why 80% of high school seniors have tried alcohol, 32% have gotten drunk in the last thirty days, 43% smoke marijuana, and about one third are smoking cigarettes. Most addicts die of their addiction and they take their family members down with them. The first step in any help program recovery is to get honest with yourself. Get honest even as to what the other person is really like.. Do not let them take you down the drain with them next too..
We all must take any personal addiction seriously because 25% of North Americans die as a result of substance abuse. The average alcoholic dies twenty-six years earlier than he or she would otherwise. Drug users, alcoholics, cheaters, abusers, adulterers affect negatively continually too the lives of at least six others
Being nice. kind, friendly to a really bad person is still also a complete waste of time, for they will not change their negative behaviors on their own, they see no reasons to do so now still too. Sad but true. We cannot never control a bad person, a drug addict or an alcoholic, but we can learn all about it and learn firstly to control our own behavior, appropriate Responses -including how we should behave in the relationship with the sick and suffering and /or possibly manipulative addict or alcoholic, abuser..
Can a Person change themselves? Is there hope for anyone? Only if they follow God’s rules!! Accepting Jesus! and we all should look at the calendar.. 2008 ad.. 2008 years after the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ… so undeniably of an event it even changed the calendar history too.
Trying to help an abuser? Establish clear, simple to follow Boundaries, Set Limits, Set detachment. One example of setting a boundary is telling a close friend, a loved one that you prefer they not be around you if they are smoking, drunk or high. Notice that it is specific demand, and you have to sit down and communicate this type of request explicitly with that someone. Setting a boundary like this is difficult because there is this tendency to hurt other’s feelings. But that is part of what is keeping you ineffective- your caring more about this person’s feelings than your own personal well being. Setting boundaries is about putting your own personal well being and even that of others first, and letting that be a guiding example of how to live. You know you are setting effective boundaries when you are taking back control of your own life firstly and starting to regain your own sanity-instead of being all wrapped up in the problems of a struggling smoker, rebel, drug addict or alcoholic.
“Here are some things that you can do in order to practice detachment with the struggling pervert in your life:
-Don’t do things that they should be doing themselves.
-Don’t bend over backwards to rescue them or save them from natural consequences.
-Don’t cover up for their mistakes or embarrassing situations.
-Don’t rescue them from crisis or financial situations.
-Don’t try to fix them.
-Let go of any guilt you may have about them
Detachment is not about denying your emotions. If someone close to you dies, for example, you will probably feel sad. You can’t choose this feeling. It simply is. But we do have the power to affect the intensity of this feeling, by focusing on the positive aspects of the situation. We can also change our thinking in an attempt to eradicate irrational beliefs that might be contributing to our emotional turmoil.
The goal is not to go without emotions, the goal is to achieve some level of emotional stability. We are detaching from the negative, irrational thoughts that stir up our emotions-like the guilt we might have if we think someone’s perversity, addiction is our fault.
Detachment is difficult and takes practice but it helps the whole works..
The prohibition by some in the Christian faith baffles me when I look at the context of Jeus’ first miracle. He is at a wedding feast. Assuming that hosts had average social skills for the day, they would have known how much wine to have on hand. So it must have been quite a party since they ran out. So what did Jesus do? Did he provide a parable on the evils of drink? Did he turn water into grape juice? No, He says party-on my friends, I’m bringing more wine!